First up: Sodom & gomorrah were not destroyed because of the sin of homosexuality, but because of inhospitality. Wow. So God hates inhospitality so much He would wipe out a whole city?! Yeah, right! One big problem, is the only sign of so-called inhospitality, is when the angels are warning Lot & his family to flee the city - God had already said the city would be destroyed before this incident. Also, the men of the city wanted to "know" the angels - in the context of sexually, and Lot offered his virgin daughters which they were not interested in. Homosexuality, or inhospitality.....I'd say the scale leans toward the sexual sin. Also oddly enough that the term "sodomy" is still used to day for a certain sex act.
Closely followed, is also the theory that the city was destroyed because of attempted rape. Again, the city's destruction was decided before the incident with the angels. Just doesn't hold water.
Next up: David and Jonathan. They base this mainly on the verse that David says his love for Jonathan is beyond that of a woman. Nothing sexual is ever depicted between the two though, and David's harem was full of women, not men, and if he had homosexual leanings, surely Jonathan would not have been the only one. Also, God condemns all sexual sin, and when David committed adultery, he was confronted and suffered for his actions - a homosexual act, also condemned by God, would also have been confronted by God.
Of course the argument against the references in the OT are that those laws were for just the Jews, so forth. But what about the many references in the NT?
The most common arguments that I have heard is that it is talking about pedophiles, as that was a common practice back then, and it is not condemning a loving monogamous relationship between two males. Even if that were true, how many of those actually happen - and last? The Bible clearly says homosexual acts are a sin.
I picked this up from a website that words some of this better than I can:
"Pro-gay theology tends to fall into one of three categories. They are all wrong, but for varying reasons. Sometimes they overlap categories.
1.The Bible is either not the Word of God, or most parts of it aren’t. This view claims that we can ignore the prohibitions against homosexual behavior because they were written by homophobic Jews.
2.The Bible is the Word of God, but it doesn’t really say homosexual behavior is wrong. This view holds that people just aren’t reading the Bible properly, and that God’s Word is actually affirming of gay relationships.
3.The Bible is the Word of God and does clearly and emphatically condemn gay behavior as sinful. However, the Holy Spirit has given additional revelations such that this behavior is now acceptable. This view holds that God has changed his mind on this moral issue and not only is it now acceptable, but it is sinful if you don’t affirm this behavior and same-sex relationships"
As I stated in one of my other posts today, you can't just pick one sin out of the Bible and say that it is interpreted wrong.
I am thankful that I have never been tempted to fall for any of these arguments. As far as I have gone in activities that were wrong, I never came close, thank God. We have to take the Bible literally - we cannot cave into popular opinion, and the gay activists who try to tell us that we are wrong to take the Bible at face value on the subject of homosexuality. It is a sin, and though it seems to me like the hardest to overcome, the same Bible that condemns it, also says that there were those who had been, and were not anymore - and therein lies my hope.
Tuesday, June 30, 2009
Part 2, What About The Other Sins.....
If you run onto someone defending homosexuality, and saying we have just interpreted the Bible wrong, ask them about the other sins. Specifically, the other sexual sins the Bible condemns. Let's see there is..........
Incest. The Old Testament had a lot to say about it. Any sexual relations between relatives was wrong. Very wrong. Siblings, parent & child, and the list goes on. I could be wrong, but I don't believe the sin is mentioned in the New Testament at all....and if it is, Jesus didn't mention it, and that is one point made about homosexuality - Jesus did not say anything about it, so it must be ok. Hmm. Incest must be ok too then.........At least the NT says a lot about homosexuality.
Bestiality. Yes, there are people in the world today, and even in the US that practice this terrible practice. Dogs, goats, horses. The list goes on. Believe me, I find it disgusting, and have never been tempted to pursue it, but in my wanderings on line, have run across sites about it, and one porn-story site I frequented a lot had a category of bestiality, for people who liked, or at least liked to read about people having sex with animals.....
OK, nasty. But again, I make the point: the OT condemned this practice, yet Jesus didn't, and neither does the NT say anything at all about it, so does that mean it is not a sin?
Of course incest and bestiality are sins. Bad ones. So why aren't people getting up in arms defending them, and saying the Bible really doesn't mean they are wrong - it was just interpreted wrong. I think one big reason is public opinion. It isn't practiced as much, at least openly, and most of the world, at least in our country, would be quick to say those are wrong, and not normal. Yet the same Bible that says homosexuality is wrong......those Scriptures are interpreted wrong, and we are terrible and hateful for saying it is a sin.
Sexual sins aside, there are other sins. Killing. Stealing. Adultery. Why are not churches saying these are ok, that the Bible was just interpreted wrong on those sins too?
I think the church in general is guilty of excusing and overlooking some things, yet in the grand scheme of things, some sins DO seem worse, and DO carry worse ramifications than others. Were it not for the politicization of homosexuality, and the efforts to indoctrinate even the youngest of kids in our schools, the ramifications of homosexuality on America as a whole, might not be as bad, not lessening the sin at all by that comment.
Sin is sin. And yes, we seem soft on some, but lets not give in and say this one is ok. The future of a lot of young people is at stake. I do think we need to address it more. Make it so that people like me who struggle in silence, are not so afraid to step up and admit our struggle. So many - like me - fear being ostracized, shunned, and being labeled perverts and even child molesters - so yes, in one sense, we need to quit branding it the unpardonable sin, yet not budge on the fact that it is sin.
Incest. The Old Testament had a lot to say about it. Any sexual relations between relatives was wrong. Very wrong. Siblings, parent & child, and the list goes on. I could be wrong, but I don't believe the sin is mentioned in the New Testament at all....and if it is, Jesus didn't mention it, and that is one point made about homosexuality - Jesus did not say anything about it, so it must be ok. Hmm. Incest must be ok too then.........At least the NT says a lot about homosexuality.
Bestiality. Yes, there are people in the world today, and even in the US that practice this terrible practice. Dogs, goats, horses. The list goes on. Believe me, I find it disgusting, and have never been tempted to pursue it, but in my wanderings on line, have run across sites about it, and one porn-story site I frequented a lot had a category of bestiality, for people who liked, or at least liked to read about people having sex with animals.....
OK, nasty. But again, I make the point: the OT condemned this practice, yet Jesus didn't, and neither does the NT say anything at all about it, so does that mean it is not a sin?
Of course incest and bestiality are sins. Bad ones. So why aren't people getting up in arms defending them, and saying the Bible really doesn't mean they are wrong - it was just interpreted wrong. I think one big reason is public opinion. It isn't practiced as much, at least openly, and most of the world, at least in our country, would be quick to say those are wrong, and not normal. Yet the same Bible that says homosexuality is wrong......those Scriptures are interpreted wrong, and we are terrible and hateful for saying it is a sin.
Sexual sins aside, there are other sins. Killing. Stealing. Adultery. Why are not churches saying these are ok, that the Bible was just interpreted wrong on those sins too?
I think the church in general is guilty of excusing and overlooking some things, yet in the grand scheme of things, some sins DO seem worse, and DO carry worse ramifications than others. Were it not for the politicization of homosexuality, and the efforts to indoctrinate even the youngest of kids in our schools, the ramifications of homosexuality on America as a whole, might not be as bad, not lessening the sin at all by that comment.
Sin is sin. And yes, we seem soft on some, but lets not give in and say this one is ok. The future of a lot of young people is at stake. I do think we need to address it more. Make it so that people like me who struggle in silence, are not so afraid to step up and admit our struggle. So many - like me - fear being ostracized, shunned, and being labeled perverts and even child molesters - so yes, in one sense, we need to quit branding it the unpardonable sin, yet not budge on the fact that it is sin.
What About The Other Sins? And Why I Can't Swallow Pro-Gay Theology Part 1
Wow, a month with no posting on this blog, and here I go for the third in two days. :-)
I have been on two sites recently where homosexuality was being debated. I linked to the one article yesterday, but here are a few pro-gay comments:
1)"Of course there are gay Christians. There are even Gay bishops now, and I know several gay Christians who have lead straight people to Christ. Mr. Labarbera does the conservative cause more harm than good with his constant degeneration of the family members and friends of a lot of Christian conservative people who know that their Gay friends and relatives are good and decent people. No wonder the youth are losing respect for/interest in the church! Not all Christians are literalists, or we would still not allow women to speak in church, we would still be stoning adulteresses, I would not be able to charge interest when I loan money, or eat shrimp. We changed as a faith on these issues, and we are changing on gay issues also."
2)"There are many theologians, pastors, those who study biblical translations, and others who do not agree with the AFA slant on homosexuals. I have personally met a number of folks who seem to have a very strong Christian faith, attend church, but who identify as homosexual. I don't think gay Christian is any more oxymoronic than divorced Christian. Those who hate homosexuals and yet profess to love God and their neighbor seem more oxymoronic."
3) "It's amusing to me that the church has taken up homosexuality as it's latest cause. It seems that they got tired of railing solely against abortion, so this was the next logical choice. Assuming that one does think that homosexuality is a sin, I wonder why LaBarbera chooses to use adultery or incest or porn addiction as a substitute for homosexuality in his argument. What would people say if we asked if fat people could have a meaningful relationship with Christ?"
Interesting. I do think the longer Jesus tarries, the more churches are going to buckle under, not fight it, and even take up the argument that the Bible really doesn't mean it is wrong.
I don't want this post to go too long, so I am going to address a few things in the above comments. Let's take up comment #3. "It's amusing to me that the church has taken up homosexuality as it's latest cause...." Oh really. I believe the church/Christians have ALWAYS believed it was wrong. Christians have not changed - at least the majority of evangelical ones - what HAS changed, is the world has accepted it - years ago, even the world considered it taboo and wrong. All that has changed is the world's view, and the sin has become more open, and they have become more outspoken and in your face about pushing the gay stuff on everyone. So I wish this person would get their facts straight - this isn't a new faze that we have picked up, to say it is wrong - we have always said that!
And yes, there are other sins, but that doesn't mean we roll over and let this sin take over society and the Church.
On to #1 - this person thinks the church taking a stance on sin is driving young people away?! So they prefer we quit calling sin, sin, and let people go to hell in a hand basket? Is it wrong to read a verse that says homosexuality is a sin, and those who practice it will not enter heaven? Then when I read that murderers will miss heaven, is that too literal to believe also?
And #2. We don't hate homosexuals, and to agree that the Bible says it is a sin, is not homophobic. Homophobic is to be afraid to be around a gay person. And another point the person got wrong, is this isn't just a slant from the American Family Association - it is what the Bible says.
I really fear for the church in regards to this issue. As you can see by reading the above comments, these are so-called Christians defending homosexuality and railing against Christians who dare to say the Bible says it is wrong.Really, if Jesus tarries many more years, how many churches will still stand against it?
I have been on two sites recently where homosexuality was being debated. I linked to the one article yesterday, but here are a few pro-gay comments:
1)"Of course there are gay Christians. There are even Gay bishops now, and I know several gay Christians who have lead straight people to Christ. Mr. Labarbera does the conservative cause more harm than good with his constant degeneration of the family members and friends of a lot of Christian conservative people who know that their Gay friends and relatives are good and decent people. No wonder the youth are losing respect for/interest in the church! Not all Christians are literalists, or we would still not allow women to speak in church, we would still be stoning adulteresses, I would not be able to charge interest when I loan money, or eat shrimp. We changed as a faith on these issues, and we are changing on gay issues also."
2)"There are many theologians, pastors, those who study biblical translations, and others who do not agree with the AFA slant on homosexuals. I have personally met a number of folks who seem to have a very strong Christian faith, attend church, but who identify as homosexual. I don't think gay Christian is any more oxymoronic than divorced Christian. Those who hate homosexuals and yet profess to love God and their neighbor seem more oxymoronic."
3) "It's amusing to me that the church has taken up homosexuality as it's latest cause. It seems that they got tired of railing solely against abortion, so this was the next logical choice. Assuming that one does think that homosexuality is a sin, I wonder why LaBarbera chooses to use adultery or incest or porn addiction as a substitute for homosexuality in his argument. What would people say if we asked if fat people could have a meaningful relationship with Christ?"
Interesting. I do think the longer Jesus tarries, the more churches are going to buckle under, not fight it, and even take up the argument that the Bible really doesn't mean it is wrong.
I don't want this post to go too long, so I am going to address a few things in the above comments. Let's take up comment #3. "It's amusing to me that the church has taken up homosexuality as it's latest cause...." Oh really. I believe the church/Christians have ALWAYS believed it was wrong. Christians have not changed - at least the majority of evangelical ones - what HAS changed, is the world has accepted it - years ago, even the world considered it taboo and wrong. All that has changed is the world's view, and the sin has become more open, and they have become more outspoken and in your face about pushing the gay stuff on everyone. So I wish this person would get their facts straight - this isn't a new faze that we have picked up, to say it is wrong - we have always said that!
And yes, there are other sins, but that doesn't mean we roll over and let this sin take over society and the Church.
On to #1 - this person thinks the church taking a stance on sin is driving young people away?! So they prefer we quit calling sin, sin, and let people go to hell in a hand basket? Is it wrong to read a verse that says homosexuality is a sin, and those who practice it will not enter heaven? Then when I read that murderers will miss heaven, is that too literal to believe also?
And #2. We don't hate homosexuals, and to agree that the Bible says it is a sin, is not homophobic. Homophobic is to be afraid to be around a gay person. And another point the person got wrong, is this isn't just a slant from the American Family Association - it is what the Bible says.
I really fear for the church in regards to this issue. As you can see by reading the above comments, these are so-called Christians defending homosexuality and railing against Christians who dare to say the Bible says it is wrong.Really, if Jesus tarries many more years, how many churches will still stand against it?
Monday, June 29, 2009
Christian Gays?
Interesting article here - George Barna infers in latest findings that people can be Christian and homosexual - as in living that lifestyle. What is interesting is the comments on the article. Some condemn Christians for being so narrow minded as to say it is sin
http://www.onenewsnow.com/Culture/Default.aspx?id=582698
http://www.onenewsnow.com/Culture/Default.aspx?id=582698
Friends
Haven't posted on this blog for a while. One reason being I have been extremely discouraged lately, and just not up to discussing this area of my life.
Life for a guy who struggles with the issue of homosexuality is rough. We all tend to think our area of struggle is worse than someone else's, and I am sure there are worse. I sure wouldn't want to be like Joni Earekson Tada and be paralyzed for life. I already have my share of days when I wonder if life is really worth living, but that would really make you wonder.
One rough area for me, is friendship. I really never had guys to hang out with. In school, all of the boys picked on me and made fun of me. In college, I got picked on a bit, and had times when another guy would hang out a bit, but I never had anyone for any length of time.
A few years ago, that changed. Met a guy close my own age who also struggled with homosexuality, and we went to similar churches. After much thought and prayer, I moved into his area and we shared an apartment for a couple of years. A wise thing to do? Many would say no. We had our time of adjusting, and it isn't like two heterosexual guys sharing an apartment, but we finally adjusted to the point that it was like living with a brother or cousin - not that I ever had a brother, or had any kind of close relationship with my cousins.
Alas, life is never perfect, and I felt I should move back close to my family. A tough decision to make, and I find myself second-guessing myself almost daily, but I couldn't get back to visit family as often as I wanted, plus, just how long can even two Christian guys share an apartment before people start thinking the worst.
I do have to say that in addition to him, I made a couple of other great friends while there, though not male, and was sad to leave all of them. Of course, I keep in touch, and see two of them once in a great while, but it isn't the same.
Since I moved back, I have felt the vacuum of any close friends more than ever. I have been friends with a married couple for about 7 years who know of my struggles - I worked with her - and while I lived out of state, I kept contact with them, and every time I came home, was asked over to visit, but they have backed way off, made friends at their new church, and seem to rarely have time for me, or for other friends they previously had. Makes it rough when friendships fade, and you wonder what went wrong.
My oldest niece is a teenager, and has been friends with another girl from our school & church, but lately, the other girl has moods. She will get mad at my niece for stupid stuff, like my niece getting to go on vacation, and will sit with and be friends with other girls for a while. If she is in the right mood, she will sit with my niece and be friends. Meanwhile, my niece feels badly when she gets snubbed.
We all have a need for friends, but it seems some of us need it more than others. I admit I wish I could find someone to truly confide my struggles in who wouldn't freak out and run, but would be willing to hang out some, and even be willing to talk about my struggles.
It may sound like a terrible admission to make, but one of my greatest temptations to deal with concerning my sexual struggles has been over the friendship issue. From the experiences I have had over the years, I know that I could not only have another guy to have a relationship with, not that I have much faith in those lasting - I know I would have other guys to hang out with - if I truly jumped into that lifestyle. I have never been tempted to believe the lies that the Bible really doesn't condemn it, but I have been tempted because of loneliness to walk away from all I have tried to live for, and give in.
I sometimes wonder if God truly understands. When Jesus was on the earth, He had 12 disciples close to Him at all times - surely He understands the need for close friends?
I have heard so often that God is enough for the single person, but is He really? Today I went to Bob Evans and got a salad to go, and took it and a can of pop to the park to eat. As I sat there, a gentleman sitting at another table was soon joined by another guy, and then a few minutes later by a young lady. All three seemed to know each other. I admit, it sounds like a pity party, but I sat there and wished I had someone to visit with as I ate my salad. You think God helped any at that moment? No. I wanted a real flesh and blood person.
I have been back at my home church for a year now. Not once in that time has someone pulled me aside and asked how I am doing. I sit in the services feeling like I am dying inside, wondering if God really does care, or if I am just fooling myself by going to church and trying to live right.
And I do have friends. But they are casual friends. People who say hi and chat a bit at church, and who seem to like me, yet they never reach out and ask how I am really doing. But true friends, who call, hang out, who really seem to care how you are doing - those are all too few.
As I sit here and type, I am wavering on a decision. Whether or not to throw out a life-long held conviction. It isn't related to my sexual struggle, but it does have to do with another area of my life that is very discouraging at the moment. Other Christians have done it, but if I give in, I will feel like I am doing wrong, and when my relationship with God is already one where I struggle to believe He cares, and really never have believed completely that He loves me - if I start doing something that I feel is wrong, to make my life easier, then will I ever stand a chance at having a good relationship with God?
My apologies to anyone who reads this. I have just been so frustrated and discouraged lately, that it came out in this blog post. It did help a little to "vent" though. :-)
In closing, I'd like to ask prayer for one of my friends. Just found out he is doing something really stupid, and hoping I can get across to him the need to quit.
Life for a guy who struggles with the issue of homosexuality is rough. We all tend to think our area of struggle is worse than someone else's, and I am sure there are worse. I sure wouldn't want to be like Joni Earekson Tada and be paralyzed for life. I already have my share of days when I wonder if life is really worth living, but that would really make you wonder.
One rough area for me, is friendship. I really never had guys to hang out with. In school, all of the boys picked on me and made fun of me. In college, I got picked on a bit, and had times when another guy would hang out a bit, but I never had anyone for any length of time.
A few years ago, that changed. Met a guy close my own age who also struggled with homosexuality, and we went to similar churches. After much thought and prayer, I moved into his area and we shared an apartment for a couple of years. A wise thing to do? Many would say no. We had our time of adjusting, and it isn't like two heterosexual guys sharing an apartment, but we finally adjusted to the point that it was like living with a brother or cousin - not that I ever had a brother, or had any kind of close relationship with my cousins.
Alas, life is never perfect, and I felt I should move back close to my family. A tough decision to make, and I find myself second-guessing myself almost daily, but I couldn't get back to visit family as often as I wanted, plus, just how long can even two Christian guys share an apartment before people start thinking the worst.
I do have to say that in addition to him, I made a couple of other great friends while there, though not male, and was sad to leave all of them. Of course, I keep in touch, and see two of them once in a great while, but it isn't the same.
Since I moved back, I have felt the vacuum of any close friends more than ever. I have been friends with a married couple for about 7 years who know of my struggles - I worked with her - and while I lived out of state, I kept contact with them, and every time I came home, was asked over to visit, but they have backed way off, made friends at their new church, and seem to rarely have time for me, or for other friends they previously had. Makes it rough when friendships fade, and you wonder what went wrong.
My oldest niece is a teenager, and has been friends with another girl from our school & church, but lately, the other girl has moods. She will get mad at my niece for stupid stuff, like my niece getting to go on vacation, and will sit with and be friends with other girls for a while. If she is in the right mood, she will sit with my niece and be friends. Meanwhile, my niece feels badly when she gets snubbed.
We all have a need for friends, but it seems some of us need it more than others. I admit I wish I could find someone to truly confide my struggles in who wouldn't freak out and run, but would be willing to hang out some, and even be willing to talk about my struggles.
It may sound like a terrible admission to make, but one of my greatest temptations to deal with concerning my sexual struggles has been over the friendship issue. From the experiences I have had over the years, I know that I could not only have another guy to have a relationship with, not that I have much faith in those lasting - I know I would have other guys to hang out with - if I truly jumped into that lifestyle. I have never been tempted to believe the lies that the Bible really doesn't condemn it, but I have been tempted because of loneliness to walk away from all I have tried to live for, and give in.
I sometimes wonder if God truly understands. When Jesus was on the earth, He had 12 disciples close to Him at all times - surely He understands the need for close friends?
I have heard so often that God is enough for the single person, but is He really? Today I went to Bob Evans and got a salad to go, and took it and a can of pop to the park to eat. As I sat there, a gentleman sitting at another table was soon joined by another guy, and then a few minutes later by a young lady. All three seemed to know each other. I admit, it sounds like a pity party, but I sat there and wished I had someone to visit with as I ate my salad. You think God helped any at that moment? No. I wanted a real flesh and blood person.
I have been back at my home church for a year now. Not once in that time has someone pulled me aside and asked how I am doing. I sit in the services feeling like I am dying inside, wondering if God really does care, or if I am just fooling myself by going to church and trying to live right.
And I do have friends. But they are casual friends. People who say hi and chat a bit at church, and who seem to like me, yet they never reach out and ask how I am really doing. But true friends, who call, hang out, who really seem to care how you are doing - those are all too few.
As I sit here and type, I am wavering on a decision. Whether or not to throw out a life-long held conviction. It isn't related to my sexual struggle, but it does have to do with another area of my life that is very discouraging at the moment. Other Christians have done it, but if I give in, I will feel like I am doing wrong, and when my relationship with God is already one where I struggle to believe He cares, and really never have believed completely that He loves me - if I start doing something that I feel is wrong, to make my life easier, then will I ever stand a chance at having a good relationship with God?
My apologies to anyone who reads this. I have just been so frustrated and discouraged lately, that it came out in this blog post. It did help a little to "vent" though. :-)
In closing, I'd like to ask prayer for one of my friends. Just found out he is doing something really stupid, and hoping I can get across to him the need to quit.
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