I didn't get to where I am overnight - to the point that I am wondering if we are right that homosexuality is wrong. To the point that I wonder if God really cares - if He even exists.
I'm tired. Tired of fighting, struggling. Of dealing with this sin, this cross I have been forced to carry. Oh, I have caved a lot over the years. No one that has dealt with this sin would understand the pull, the attractions. The lonliness. I am so tired of hiding who I am, hiding what I deal with. Tired of being ashamed of who and what I am. Tired of the self-loathing.
I have begged God to make me normal. Begged Him to take these desires away - and He doesn't.
I realized I was gay at age 21, and since then have tried to not be, but to no avail. I don't ascribe to the "born gay" theory. I don't think I was gay as a kid. Teenager? Most likely. I can remember liking to look at other guys as a teen, especially guys who were shirtless. Back then, I was so sheltered and naive' that I knew nothing about homosexuality, so was I as a teenager? Looking back - yes.
I have been disappointed with the Church's response and solution to being gay. All too many Christians say it is a choice..... really? Who would choose this? No one in their right mind. Too many also equate it with child molestors. Never mind the majority of child molestors are heterosexual. Also too many are homophobic and seem to have a fear that a gay person is going to rub off on them or rape them.
Even the Christians who know someone is gay, like myself, fail miserably. They tell me they will pray for me - and I am not discounting that, but this isn't your average sin... if it really is a sin. The gay person is dealing with a lot, and needs more than a pat on the back and prayer. He needs love, companionship, understanding..... and usually doesn't get that.
There are churches that get it. Some have specific ministries for gay people. Christians who will help mentor and be there for them.... wish I could go to one of them.
There have been two of my pastors who have worked with me and tried to help. My former pastor and my current pastor. They really tried. They both spent a lot of time counseling me and praying with me, but I say with a 99% certainty that neither of them ever read a book on homosexuality, on how to counsel a gay person, or anything about it. They both treated it like any other sin... and it isn't.
I met with my pastor a couple of weeks ago. I laid it all out for him - that I have totally given up on being a Christian, that I don't even want to be right now, that I am even doubting God's existence, that I am on the verge of walking away from the church and embracing homosexuality. His reply? He said he would be praying for me - good - to call him any time I need to - good - and to pray and trust God - bad. Been there, done that. Didn't work, and I am tired of trying.
I really can't see living like this for the rest of my life. Pardon my language, but so far my adult life has sucked. Too many days and nights of lonliness. Is it any wonder I sought solace in pornography and countless anonymous encounters? I really wonder if I might have been better off if I had sought out an actual relationship and stuck to that..... that is one reason I am eyeing that idea so intensely right now. I am lonely - very lonely - and tired of it. Sick of it. And sick and tired of the church telling me I just need to pray. That God is all I need, and He will be there. Guess what? God isn't enough. I need flesh and blood people to love me, hang out with me. The average gay guy who is out has plenty of friends to hang out with. The average gay male in the church who is trying to do right has..... none. If C hristianity and God is so wonderful why is that? Why must I live a life of loneliness?
I was going to post a letter I ran across some time ago, but I am going on too long, so check out the next post..... Anonymous Letter from a Homosexual to the Church
Sunday, October 17, 2010
Anonymous Letter from a Homosexual to the Church
I found this on PFOX (Parents and friends of ex-gays). I did not write it, though I could have.... or any gay male sitting in the church:
Dear Church,
I’m in such pain; I just had to write something to someone, because there’s no one to call at this hour. Don’t think poorly of me because I am still learning to lean on God… and because sometimes I need arms to hold me; even God said it is not good that man be alone. I don’t want to disturb anyone at this hour. I’m afraid if I did, they would reject me… people seem to be eager to help when it’s convenient. For me to call someone now would be inconvenient, and I could not take the possible rejection on top of the pain I already feel in my heart. Sometimes the stuff I'm forbidden to have can look awfully good when I'm feeling empty on the inside, with no one to call.
I like what I’ve learned from the bible, even though it’s hard to accept some things. But I need more; I need to see Jesus modeled by the Church. I need to see you who believe actually BE the ears, arms, and eyes of God. I need friends. I need guys in my life I can get together with - pals, buddies… I need the stuff I didn't get growing up, and that most guys don't have time for in the Church - because they have families and fathers and careers already. But I don’t need a baby sitter or a teacher; I need a human being who cares and who is willing and able to be a friend. I need men in my life who will love me where I’m at, who are willing and able to spend time with me; I need men to show me examples of what a healthy relationship between men looks like, not just an hour a week at Sunday school… but in real life.
I think guys who have families forget what being single is like... some will argue the reverse, that I’m better off single… but they don’t know what they have – and they would rethink things if they found themselves alone, as I am. They want to fix me, and think that I should bury myself in work like they do; but maybe that burial is why their marriages are dying. Maybe I’m not the only sick one here – maybe most guys are just as scared as I am over sharing their hearts. I've had several suggest that the right job would fix my loneliness... but I know from personal experience that work doesn’t fill the need for human contact, and the secular workplace doesn’t fill the need for Godly relationships with other men.
Sometimes you, men of the Church, make comments that I’m too open, and sometimes I think to myself, “You should be a man, keep the feelings in and be strong.” But is this really what God wants – or is it male pride? I think those words “Be strong” are whispered directly from Satan’s mouth into my ear… and the ear of every man… because in my strength, I draw away from needing God and others, and I am really weak – even though my pride fools me into thinking I am powerfully “self-reliant”. And when I am weak, I am strong, because I am more connected with God and with other men… because I need them.
Heck, the people I can relate to most in any setting seem to be the older ones or the kids - because most of the guys my age have lost something that kids and older people have. I don't know what it is, maybe people my age are too arrogant, too set in our ways, too proud, or too busy to be bothered with such “trivial” things as friendship and love. I miss friends from my old life… because even though some of those interactions might have been sinful, at least I had friends who would spend time with me. The Church can seem pretty sterile when the only time I see you – you who call themselves “brothers and sisters” – is in a bible study or at church. I feel like I'm starving for human interaction, when all I get is two or three hours a week in groups. Is this what you would call “ministering”?
Do you, dear Church, want to know the real reason I stumble into pornography and gay sin? It is for one reason: I am starved for relationship, for friendship, for touch... but I am afraid to ask, and be told “no” yet again. The pornography might be sin, but at least the “high” took my mind off the pain of isolation for a little while, when you weren’t willing to; and pornography is always there; you, men of the Church, are not. It made me forget my loneliness. When life gets tough, you have wives and family to comfort you – or at the very least to keep you occupied. When my life gets tough, married men tell me to seek comfort in God – spoken from the comfort of their wives arms. This is convenient… for them. I have put work into relationships, and you didn’t have time, dear Church. It’s funny how you have time to condemn homosexuals, to rally to abolish gay marriage, or get on the band wagon over this cause or that, all in the name of God. But you don’t have time to be friends with a homosexual who wants to change. If I were to define hell, it would be "a void of relationship". If I were to point to a place on earth where I have found the most hell, it has been within the walls of the Church. I’m tired of all the verses and the theory. You want me to change; stop talking and SHOW me how to be a loving Christian in Godly relationships by LIVING that theory with me, by inviting me into these relationships… or I will stumble – and you, men of the Church, will not be guiltless.
I want to live life, to share life with people. There seems to be no outlet for me – the single male struggling with sexual brokenness – to do this, other than little bits here and there. I have much to offer, along with my peers, even though I am also needy. I want the touch of another human being. I want it to matter when I laugh and when I cry, and I want the tears and laughter of others to matter to me. I am frustrated by so many things in not only our society, but in the Church; men do not know how to love one another as God intended... if we all did, there wouldn't be so much homosexuality; it is a backlash, a result of men not loving as they should... including you, men of the Church.
I have one dream... I want Jesus to hold me, to let me cry, to sob, to let my body shake with the grief of the losses I have felt in my life. I want him to be there and hold me through it, whether I cry for a minute, a day, or a year... until finally there are no more tears left. And then I want to fall asleep in his arms, I want to be safe. I want to go back, to be a kid again, and to get what I didn't get back then, what I can't get now by myself, but which can only come through Jesus and through other men in a healthy way. I am frustrated and angry - and I feel cheated, that I have no attraction to women, that I have no family. I have worked so hard simply to overcome the trauma of the rejection I went through from my father... he didn't mean to do it, but I carry those deep scars, and they go right to the foundation of my heart.
Do you want to crucify the homosexual, or save him? If you want to save him, here I am, and I’m asking to be saved. I’m asking you to be Christ’s arms and ears, to hold me and let me cry, to let me know Jesus does care about me – that even though I feel rejected and broken and alone, at least someone does care. Or do you want to help in theory, so you can feel good about yourselves? Or maybe it’s just easier to throw the first stone. Some days, I would thank you for throwing that stone; the pain would end.
I know you can't fix me. You may not know what to say. Men of the Church, you think you have to say something profound to "fix" others. Wrong. You are here to teach me God’s ways by EXAMPLE, to be examples of love in a world of hatred. Ironically, I – the homosexual – am here to teach you, too, men of the Church. “To teach us?” you may ask in shock. Yes, to teach you something you’ve forgotten; we are here to teach you the strength of vulnerability, the power of facing the truth - we are powerless, that we are all broken and we can fix nothing... that Jesus died to fix us. When in my weakest moments I share with you, I am doing what God wants me to. I am an example of vulnerability, and my example gives you – men of the Church – permission to shed your masks of self-strength and self-righteousness. Listen and learn, men of the Church: we can’t put on God’s armor, until we first take off our own useless armor… and we can’t do that until we set our pride aside, and get honest with one another. I’m ready. Are you?
Dear Church,
I’m in such pain; I just had to write something to someone, because there’s no one to call at this hour. Don’t think poorly of me because I am still learning to lean on God… and because sometimes I need arms to hold me; even God said it is not good that man be alone. I don’t want to disturb anyone at this hour. I’m afraid if I did, they would reject me… people seem to be eager to help when it’s convenient. For me to call someone now would be inconvenient, and I could not take the possible rejection on top of the pain I already feel in my heart. Sometimes the stuff I'm forbidden to have can look awfully good when I'm feeling empty on the inside, with no one to call.
I like what I’ve learned from the bible, even though it’s hard to accept some things. But I need more; I need to see Jesus modeled by the Church. I need to see you who believe actually BE the ears, arms, and eyes of God. I need friends. I need guys in my life I can get together with - pals, buddies… I need the stuff I didn't get growing up, and that most guys don't have time for in the Church - because they have families and fathers and careers already. But I don’t need a baby sitter or a teacher; I need a human being who cares and who is willing and able to be a friend. I need men in my life who will love me where I’m at, who are willing and able to spend time with me; I need men to show me examples of what a healthy relationship between men looks like, not just an hour a week at Sunday school… but in real life.
I think guys who have families forget what being single is like... some will argue the reverse, that I’m better off single… but they don’t know what they have – and they would rethink things if they found themselves alone, as I am. They want to fix me, and think that I should bury myself in work like they do; but maybe that burial is why their marriages are dying. Maybe I’m not the only sick one here – maybe most guys are just as scared as I am over sharing their hearts. I've had several suggest that the right job would fix my loneliness... but I know from personal experience that work doesn’t fill the need for human contact, and the secular workplace doesn’t fill the need for Godly relationships with other men.
Sometimes you, men of the Church, make comments that I’m too open, and sometimes I think to myself, “You should be a man, keep the feelings in and be strong.” But is this really what God wants – or is it male pride? I think those words “Be strong” are whispered directly from Satan’s mouth into my ear… and the ear of every man… because in my strength, I draw away from needing God and others, and I am really weak – even though my pride fools me into thinking I am powerfully “self-reliant”. And when I am weak, I am strong, because I am more connected with God and with other men… because I need them.
Heck, the people I can relate to most in any setting seem to be the older ones or the kids - because most of the guys my age have lost something that kids and older people have. I don't know what it is, maybe people my age are too arrogant, too set in our ways, too proud, or too busy to be bothered with such “trivial” things as friendship and love. I miss friends from my old life… because even though some of those interactions might have been sinful, at least I had friends who would spend time with me. The Church can seem pretty sterile when the only time I see you – you who call themselves “brothers and sisters” – is in a bible study or at church. I feel like I'm starving for human interaction, when all I get is two or three hours a week in groups. Is this what you would call “ministering”?
Do you, dear Church, want to know the real reason I stumble into pornography and gay sin? It is for one reason: I am starved for relationship, for friendship, for touch... but I am afraid to ask, and be told “no” yet again. The pornography might be sin, but at least the “high” took my mind off the pain of isolation for a little while, when you weren’t willing to; and pornography is always there; you, men of the Church, are not. It made me forget my loneliness. When life gets tough, you have wives and family to comfort you – or at the very least to keep you occupied. When my life gets tough, married men tell me to seek comfort in God – spoken from the comfort of their wives arms. This is convenient… for them. I have put work into relationships, and you didn’t have time, dear Church. It’s funny how you have time to condemn homosexuals, to rally to abolish gay marriage, or get on the band wagon over this cause or that, all in the name of God. But you don’t have time to be friends with a homosexual who wants to change. If I were to define hell, it would be "a void of relationship". If I were to point to a place on earth where I have found the most hell, it has been within the walls of the Church. I’m tired of all the verses and the theory. You want me to change; stop talking and SHOW me how to be a loving Christian in Godly relationships by LIVING that theory with me, by inviting me into these relationships… or I will stumble – and you, men of the Church, will not be guiltless.
I want to live life, to share life with people. There seems to be no outlet for me – the single male struggling with sexual brokenness – to do this, other than little bits here and there. I have much to offer, along with my peers, even though I am also needy. I want the touch of another human being. I want it to matter when I laugh and when I cry, and I want the tears and laughter of others to matter to me. I am frustrated by so many things in not only our society, but in the Church; men do not know how to love one another as God intended... if we all did, there wouldn't be so much homosexuality; it is a backlash, a result of men not loving as they should... including you, men of the Church.
I have one dream... I want Jesus to hold me, to let me cry, to sob, to let my body shake with the grief of the losses I have felt in my life. I want him to be there and hold me through it, whether I cry for a minute, a day, or a year... until finally there are no more tears left. And then I want to fall asleep in his arms, I want to be safe. I want to go back, to be a kid again, and to get what I didn't get back then, what I can't get now by myself, but which can only come through Jesus and through other men in a healthy way. I am frustrated and angry - and I feel cheated, that I have no attraction to women, that I have no family. I have worked so hard simply to overcome the trauma of the rejection I went through from my father... he didn't mean to do it, but I carry those deep scars, and they go right to the foundation of my heart.
Do you want to crucify the homosexual, or save him? If you want to save him, here I am, and I’m asking to be saved. I’m asking you to be Christ’s arms and ears, to hold me and let me cry, to let me know Jesus does care about me – that even though I feel rejected and broken and alone, at least someone does care. Or do you want to help in theory, so you can feel good about yourselves? Or maybe it’s just easier to throw the first stone. Some days, I would thank you for throwing that stone; the pain would end.
I know you can't fix me. You may not know what to say. Men of the Church, you think you have to say something profound to "fix" others. Wrong. You are here to teach me God’s ways by EXAMPLE, to be examples of love in a world of hatred. Ironically, I – the homosexual – am here to teach you, too, men of the Church. “To teach us?” you may ask in shock. Yes, to teach you something you’ve forgotten; we are here to teach you the strength of vulnerability, the power of facing the truth - we are powerless, that we are all broken and we can fix nothing... that Jesus died to fix us. When in my weakest moments I share with you, I am doing what God wants me to. I am an example of vulnerability, and my example gives you – men of the Church – permission to shed your masks of self-strength and self-righteousness. Listen and learn, men of the Church: we can’t put on God’s armor, until we first take off our own useless armor… and we can’t do that until we set our pride aside, and get honest with one another. I’m ready. Are you?
Friday, October 1, 2010
The loneliness factor
No one gets it. There are several people who know about my gay issue. Most of them never mention it, and I wonder if some of them even remember. The few that do talk about it have absolutely no clue what it is like to be attracted to the wrong gender. To want love, a relationship, a family.... and never be able to have that. Oh, they give pat little answers, but they have no real solution, no true way of helping.
I have fought being gay for years, stumbling, falling, having sexual encounters with multiple men. I wanted to be wanted. Things have changed. Oh, there is just as much attraction for the same sex, but sex isn't what I want. I want to be held, to be loved, wanted, desired. I don't want to be lonely. Yet I am between the proverbial rock and hard place.... I don't think it is possible for me to ever love, be attracted to, have sex with.... a woman. And if Christians are right, if the Bible is right...... it is wrong for me to do that with a man.
The old maxim is so true. Not to judge another til you walk in his shoes. Christians abhore homosexuality, more than any other sin. They look down on men who want to be with men, or women with women..... but they have no clue what it is like.
I have been lonely for most of my life. I was picked on and bullied in school and even some in Bible college. I longed to be liked, for people to want to be around, but instead, I felt no one liked me. I eventually grew out of feeling that way, but still have a hard time believing someone would like me, want me as a friend or more.
For years I never had a true male friend. Someone to hang out with, call, just hang out with. Enter Steven. He also struggles with same-sex attractions. Through a mininstry opportunity for him, we met and quickly became friends. I was at a point where I wanted to get away from it all, so I moved 400 miles away and we shared an apartment for 2 years. Sounds like a bad idea, 2 guys struggling with SSA living together, but it worked well. We both needed a friend, and that is what we were.
Those were 2 of the best years of my life. For so long, I had never had someone to go shopping with, watch movies with, just hang out - and now I did. He became like a brother.
But real life always intrudes. My mom was suffering from depression. I felt guilt because they were against my move. I also missed seeing my nieces and nephews, as I couldn't come back as often as I wished. I made the hard decision to move back. Ever since, I question that move.
Two years and 3 months later, most of my belongings are in storage, and I am still staying with my parents, still only have a part time job. I am more lonely than ever, have depression, have been majorly discouraged, and am disillusioned with life, God, the church. I have given up spiritually. Some believe once you are saved, you can never miss heaven, never walk away from God. I disagree, for I have walked away. Maybe more on that later.
I have had guys that wanted a relationship with me in the past, and I always passed up on it. I am to the point now that I have never, ever been in. I want a relationship with another guy. Not just sex, but inimacy, love. I want to "out" myself..... quit hiding who I am. Yet, I cannot hurt my family. They are the reason I hide it. And can I have a relationship without them knowing?
I am fed up with the strugggle. With being lonely. With never being set free. Oh, we read it, hear it preached - Christ sets the prisoner free. He breaks the chains. But does He? I have never felt my chains were broken. I have never felt free. Oh, I asked forgiveness, tried to live for God, but the chains were still there. I just did a better job of not giving in at some times.
I am even wondering if gay really is wrong. More on that later. I am starting a new blog to run alongside this one.( Struggling on the Journey). But if you're reading this and you believe gay is wrong....... what are my options? A life of being held by chains, a life of being lonely?
I have fought being gay for years, stumbling, falling, having sexual encounters with multiple men. I wanted to be wanted. Things have changed. Oh, there is just as much attraction for the same sex, but sex isn't what I want. I want to be held, to be loved, wanted, desired. I don't want to be lonely. Yet I am between the proverbial rock and hard place.... I don't think it is possible for me to ever love, be attracted to, have sex with.... a woman. And if Christians are right, if the Bible is right...... it is wrong for me to do that with a man.
The old maxim is so true. Not to judge another til you walk in his shoes. Christians abhore homosexuality, more than any other sin. They look down on men who want to be with men, or women with women..... but they have no clue what it is like.
I have been lonely for most of my life. I was picked on and bullied in school and even some in Bible college. I longed to be liked, for people to want to be around, but instead, I felt no one liked me. I eventually grew out of feeling that way, but still have a hard time believing someone would like me, want me as a friend or more.
For years I never had a true male friend. Someone to hang out with, call, just hang out with. Enter Steven. He also struggles with same-sex attractions. Through a mininstry opportunity for him, we met and quickly became friends. I was at a point where I wanted to get away from it all, so I moved 400 miles away and we shared an apartment for 2 years. Sounds like a bad idea, 2 guys struggling with SSA living together, but it worked well. We both needed a friend, and that is what we were.
Those were 2 of the best years of my life. For so long, I had never had someone to go shopping with, watch movies with, just hang out - and now I did. He became like a brother.
But real life always intrudes. My mom was suffering from depression. I felt guilt because they were against my move. I also missed seeing my nieces and nephews, as I couldn't come back as often as I wished. I made the hard decision to move back. Ever since, I question that move.
Two years and 3 months later, most of my belongings are in storage, and I am still staying with my parents, still only have a part time job. I am more lonely than ever, have depression, have been majorly discouraged, and am disillusioned with life, God, the church. I have given up spiritually. Some believe once you are saved, you can never miss heaven, never walk away from God. I disagree, for I have walked away. Maybe more on that later.
I have had guys that wanted a relationship with me in the past, and I always passed up on it. I am to the point now that I have never, ever been in. I want a relationship with another guy. Not just sex, but inimacy, love. I want to "out" myself..... quit hiding who I am. Yet, I cannot hurt my family. They are the reason I hide it. And can I have a relationship without them knowing?
I am fed up with the strugggle. With being lonely. With never being set free. Oh, we read it, hear it preached - Christ sets the prisoner free. He breaks the chains. But does He? I have never felt my chains were broken. I have never felt free. Oh, I asked forgiveness, tried to live for God, but the chains were still there. I just did a better job of not giving in at some times.
I am even wondering if gay really is wrong. More on that later. I am starting a new blog to run alongside this one.( Struggling on the Journey). But if you're reading this and you believe gay is wrong....... what are my options? A life of being held by chains, a life of being lonely?
Monday, July 12, 2010
Gays in the military
This is a hot topic, and one I have wanted to adress on my regular blog, but since I wanted to come at it from the view of someone who struggles with homosexuality, I couldn't very well do that on the blog where everyone knows who I am, so here I am doing it anonymously.
So, as someone who has not only struggled with homosexuality, but also lived the lifestyle for several years - not openly, but privately - what do I think of lifting the ban on "don't ask, don't tell"? Bad idea - very bad. Let me expound on that.....
If you are reading this and have common sense and morals, do you think it is a good idea for men and women to reside together in a barracks, close quarters, shower together - all that? Of course it isn't - so why put men attracted to men and women attracted to women in the same barracks and have them showering together.
If you are male, do you really want to be ogled by another man while you shower? A man who finds you attractive? And the same if you are a woman?
Let me be blunt here: as a guy who struggles with homosexuality and has had numerous sexual encounters...... shirtless guys who are in good shape are as much of a turn on and I have as much desire to look at them as a straight guy with an attractive barely dressed young lady. Or a naked one. If you are straight, could you honestly shower with an attractive/hot member of the opposite sex and not be affected by it? Not look, or want to look? Not become aroused by showering with a member of the opposite sex?
But you say, it isn't the same. Oh yes it is. If I had to daily shower with "hot studly" guys, I'd have major issues. If I were "out and proud", what inhibitions would I have? Not many.
Moving on, being a little more blunt - there are a lot of gay men who find men in a uniform hot and all the more desirable. There are tons of gay porn flicks made involving guys in military dress. I can see gay guys going into the military just to be around men in uniform.
Lawsuits. If they end the DADT, there will be inappropriate behavior and comments - and lawsuits will happen. Actual sexual harrassment and perceived.
Why do we want to open this door that will cause so much trouble? Politics. Unfortunately, Obama and too many in Congress don't care about the results of this action - they want votes and they want to make the people happy who put them in office.
I was reading a news story this morning where it is knocking the decision to let the military do a poll on this subject - why? Shouldn't the ones who will be directly affected by this action be allowed to have a voice? I think their opinion should matter most and be heard the most. Story here: http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/08599200307500;_ylt=AnKaI7_o4yWS5vWyeWH3xvYDwLAF;_ylu=X3oDMTM1NXFuZzgyBGFzc2V0A3RpbWUvMjAxMDA3MTIvMDg1OTkyMDAzMDc1MDAEY2NvZGUDbW9zdHBvcHVsYXIEY3BvcwM1BHBvcwM1BHNlYwN5bl90b3Bfc3RvcmllcwRzbGsDZ2F5c2ludGhlbWls
Guys are more sexual than women, wanting it more often, etc - and when you have gay guys openly living with other guys who are openly gay, sex is going to happen - that is against the law in the military - there are so many ways this is a bad idea that I am sure I have touched the tip of the iceberg, but these were some of my thoughts.
So, as someone who has not only struggled with homosexuality, but also lived the lifestyle for several years - not openly, but privately - what do I think of lifting the ban on "don't ask, don't tell"? Bad idea - very bad. Let me expound on that.....
If you are reading this and have common sense and morals, do you think it is a good idea for men and women to reside together in a barracks, close quarters, shower together - all that? Of course it isn't - so why put men attracted to men and women attracted to women in the same barracks and have them showering together.
If you are male, do you really want to be ogled by another man while you shower? A man who finds you attractive? And the same if you are a woman?
Let me be blunt here: as a guy who struggles with homosexuality and has had numerous sexual encounters...... shirtless guys who are in good shape are as much of a turn on and I have as much desire to look at them as a straight guy with an attractive barely dressed young lady. Or a naked one. If you are straight, could you honestly shower with an attractive/hot member of the opposite sex and not be affected by it? Not look, or want to look? Not become aroused by showering with a member of the opposite sex?
But you say, it isn't the same. Oh yes it is. If I had to daily shower with "hot studly" guys, I'd have major issues. If I were "out and proud", what inhibitions would I have? Not many.
Moving on, being a little more blunt - there are a lot of gay men who find men in a uniform hot and all the more desirable. There are tons of gay porn flicks made involving guys in military dress. I can see gay guys going into the military just to be around men in uniform.
Lawsuits. If they end the DADT, there will be inappropriate behavior and comments - and lawsuits will happen. Actual sexual harrassment and perceived.
Why do we want to open this door that will cause so much trouble? Politics. Unfortunately, Obama and too many in Congress don't care about the results of this action - they want votes and they want to make the people happy who put them in office.
I was reading a news story this morning where it is knocking the decision to let the military do a poll on this subject - why? Shouldn't the ones who will be directly affected by this action be allowed to have a voice? I think their opinion should matter most and be heard the most. Story here: http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/08599200307500;_ylt=AnKaI7_o4yWS5vWyeWH3xvYDwLAF;_ylu=X3oDMTM1NXFuZzgyBGFzc2V0A3RpbWUvMjAxMDA3MTIvMDg1OTkyMDAzMDc1MDAEY2NvZGUDbW9zdHBvcHVsYXIEY3BvcwM1BHBvcwM1BHNlYwN5bl90b3Bfc3RvcmllcwRzbGsDZ2F5c2ludGhlbWls
Guys are more sexual than women, wanting it more often, etc - and when you have gay guys openly living with other guys who are openly gay, sex is going to happen - that is against the law in the military - there are so many ways this is a bad idea that I am sure I have touched the tip of the iceberg, but these were some of my thoughts.
Monday, July 5, 2010
My reply to John (cornellcrawford) part 1
In my last post back in May, I had some comments from a gentleman named John, user name, cornellcrawford. He disagrees with me, but was very kind in his remarks, so hopefully I can be as kind in my reply. He said I could email him, but cannot find a way to do so, so I will do so here and hope he reads it. I will do so in 4 parts, as his comments were. First will be his comment, then my reply:
cornellcrawford said...
Part One:
I read your blog, and wanted to comment on a few things. Please understand that what I say is out of concern and sincerity, and while it may be harsh, is no way laced with animosity or ridicule. I am a gay man who has struggled with organized religion since I realized I, too, was condemned by it. However, I have embraced a loving God who is greater than what mankind (namely, straight and self-loathing gay men) has decided that God to be.
I'm really puzzled as to why you would still cling to a dogma that clearly condemns you; if you really believe in a loving Creator, an omnipotent Being, then you must realize that this God is greater than what man has decided God to be. You cannot box God into a neat and well-defined personality, because it is an insult and quite arrogant to claim we are intelligent enough to really know Someone who created the universe. That, I believe, is the first step in recognizing or "fearing" the Lord.
cornellcrawford said...
Part One:
I read your blog, and wanted to comment on a few things. Please understand that what I say is out of concern and sincerity, and while it may be harsh, is no way laced with animosity or ridicule. I am a gay man who has struggled with organized religion since I realized I, too, was condemned by it. However, I have embraced a loving God who is greater than what mankind (namely, straight and self-loathing gay men) has decided that God to be.
I'm really puzzled as to why you would still cling to a dogma that clearly condemns you; if you really believe in a loving Creator, an omnipotent Being, then you must realize that this God is greater than what man has decided God to be. You cannot box God into a neat and well-defined personality, because it is an insult and quite arrogant to claim we are intelligent enough to really know Someone who created the universe. That, I believe, is the first step in recognizing or "fearing" the Lord.
My reply:
I agree with you on some of what you say. Indeed, God cannot be put into a neat little box, and too many people, myself included, are guilty of trying to do so - but that has nothing to do with homosexuality.
As for "clinging to a dogma that clearly condemns me" - I want to make it to Heaven, and to do so, I must obey God, and yes, I may be condemned by what is in the Bible, but I must live above my sin.
As to the other, I will get to it later, but I do believe the Bible says homosexuality is wrong, and that has nothing to do with organized religion. What the Bible says is true, no matter what organized religion says.
My reply to John (cornellcrawford) part 2
cornellcrawford said...
Part Two:
I would encourage you to look beyond what you know or have already learned about Biblical interpretation. You claim that you "know the Bible too well." That, my brother, is a really arrogant statement. To accept Scripture as inerrant without applying any investment of critical thinking insults any God who created life with any ounce of intelligence. God expects us to use our minds, and not to follow blindly, just because of the threat of "hell." Actually, I would argue that you are already in hell, as you are clearly quite miserable. Men and women spend their lives in rigorous academic study, pondering the nature of Scripture, its historical context, its cultural context, its poetry, its symbolism, and yes, its errors. You cannot study the Old and New testaments without proper references, mainly historical and cultural contexts to compare and delve into the nature and meaning of the texts. We're separated by thousands of years from the New Testament, and even longer from the Old Testament. Cultural norms from these ancient times no longer exists. Surely, you can't say that in today's society it's permissible to stone your children for disobedience or to condone slavery, as these practices were in the Old testament? If you can't and recognize these passages as no longer relevant to society, then why would you also cling to a scripture that seemingly condemns homosexuality?
My reply:
When I said I know the Bible "too well" - I did not mean that the way you are quoting me. I said I know it too well to believe that homosexuality is not a sin. Maybe a better way to say it would have been that I know it well enough to know that. Same as saying I know it too well to not know who Abraham was - so my friend, you are sort of taking my statement out of context, but I will not hold that against you. :-)
Some of the cultural and ceremonial laws in the Old Testament do not apply to us, and I don't understand the slavery stuff, but I do know a few things: what God calls an abomination means something serious, and he calls sex between the same gender an abomination. Also, the New Testament has a lot to say about homosexuality - and other sexual sins that were also condemned in the OT.
Romans 1:18-32 - notice verses 26-27, especially
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality,[c] wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving,[d] unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 - notice it says some were like that, leaving the idea that people CAN change:
9 Don’t you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don’t fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality, 10 or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat people—none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God. 11 Some of you were once like that. But you were cleansed; you were made holy; you were made right with God by calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
I would like your reply on something, John, or anyone else who believes as you do - and I am not trying to be unkind here - God condemned incest, bestiality, homosexuality, and any sex outside of marriage - along with other sins - stealing, killing, etc - why did He supposedly change His mind on just homosexuality? I don't think you'd argue that bestiality and incest are wrong - and you may even go so far to say God condemns straight heterosexual sin outside of marriage, and adultery - so what is special about homosexuality that God changed His mind on it?
Here is my answer - He didn't change. What changed was society's acceptance of it. In turn, many churches and Christians have caved to that acceptance and accepted it also. The day could come that pedephilia is accepted - it is in some countries - does that make it right? Of course not. It is still wrong. Very wrong. Should the day come that it is ok in the US, will it be right? Of course not. The same with homosexuality. The Bible clearly states it is wrong, but due to pressure from the outspoken gay militant movement, too many Christians are saying the Bible was interpreted wrong, and all that stuff. So if it was, then what is wrong and right. I still believe that God had His hand on what is in the Bible, and He allowed what is in there to be in there, and yes, He says homosexuality is wrong. It isn't easy, in fact it is very hard, but it is wrong.
The thing is, I would be scared to death to bet my soul on the fact that you are right. If I am wrong, and manage to get straightened out with God, there is no harm or foul. But if I decided to swallow your theology and you are wrong...... I'd spend eternity in hell - and why? Because even though God plainly said it was wrong, I allowed public opinion and man's ideas sway me to go against what is there in black and white.
And might I add, my problems are not all tied to homosexuality and my struggle. I had issues long before I realized I was gay. Years of getting picked on in school, feeling no one liked me - it spilled over into my view of God. Even before the light came on and I realized I was gay, I was struggling to believe God loved me - and it had nothing to do with homosexuality/being gay. It had to do with a young boy being bullied, living a lonely childhood up through adulthood, never really having had friends, even being picked on by male cousins - that stuff still is with me, and yes, the gay stuff has added to it, but my view of God and my attempted relationship with Him has always been screwed up - long before I realized I was gay and began THAT struggle.
Part Two:
I would encourage you to look beyond what you know or have already learned about Biblical interpretation. You claim that you "know the Bible too well." That, my brother, is a really arrogant statement. To accept Scripture as inerrant without applying any investment of critical thinking insults any God who created life with any ounce of intelligence. God expects us to use our minds, and not to follow blindly, just because of the threat of "hell." Actually, I would argue that you are already in hell, as you are clearly quite miserable. Men and women spend their lives in rigorous academic study, pondering the nature of Scripture, its historical context, its cultural context, its poetry, its symbolism, and yes, its errors. You cannot study the Old and New testaments without proper references, mainly historical and cultural contexts to compare and delve into the nature and meaning of the texts. We're separated by thousands of years from the New Testament, and even longer from the Old Testament. Cultural norms from these ancient times no longer exists. Surely, you can't say that in today's society it's permissible to stone your children for disobedience or to condone slavery, as these practices were in the Old testament? If you can't and recognize these passages as no longer relevant to society, then why would you also cling to a scripture that seemingly condemns homosexuality?
My reply:
When I said I know the Bible "too well" - I did not mean that the way you are quoting me. I said I know it too well to believe that homosexuality is not a sin. Maybe a better way to say it would have been that I know it well enough to know that. Same as saying I know it too well to not know who Abraham was - so my friend, you are sort of taking my statement out of context, but I will not hold that against you. :-)
Some of the cultural and ceremonial laws in the Old Testament do not apply to us, and I don't understand the slavery stuff, but I do know a few things: what God calls an abomination means something serious, and he calls sex between the same gender an abomination. Also, the New Testament has a lot to say about homosexuality - and other sexual sins that were also condemned in the OT.
Romans 1:18-32 - notice verses 26-27, especially
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality,[c] wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving,[d] unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 - notice it says some were like that, leaving the idea that people CAN change:
9 Don’t you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don’t fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality, 10 or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat people—none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God. 11 Some of you were once like that. But you were cleansed; you were made holy; you were made right with God by calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
I would like your reply on something, John, or anyone else who believes as you do - and I am not trying to be unkind here - God condemned incest, bestiality, homosexuality, and any sex outside of marriage - along with other sins - stealing, killing, etc - why did He supposedly change His mind on just homosexuality? I don't think you'd argue that bestiality and incest are wrong - and you may even go so far to say God condemns straight heterosexual sin outside of marriage, and adultery - so what is special about homosexuality that God changed His mind on it?
Here is my answer - He didn't change. What changed was society's acceptance of it. In turn, many churches and Christians have caved to that acceptance and accepted it also. The day could come that pedephilia is accepted - it is in some countries - does that make it right? Of course not. It is still wrong. Very wrong. Should the day come that it is ok in the US, will it be right? Of course not. The same with homosexuality. The Bible clearly states it is wrong, but due to pressure from the outspoken gay militant movement, too many Christians are saying the Bible was interpreted wrong, and all that stuff. So if it was, then what is wrong and right. I still believe that God had His hand on what is in the Bible, and He allowed what is in there to be in there, and yes, He says homosexuality is wrong. It isn't easy, in fact it is very hard, but it is wrong.
The thing is, I would be scared to death to bet my soul on the fact that you are right. If I am wrong, and manage to get straightened out with God, there is no harm or foul. But if I decided to swallow your theology and you are wrong...... I'd spend eternity in hell - and why? Because even though God plainly said it was wrong, I allowed public opinion and man's ideas sway me to go against what is there in black and white.
And might I add, my problems are not all tied to homosexuality and my struggle. I had issues long before I realized I was gay. Years of getting picked on in school, feeling no one liked me - it spilled over into my view of God. Even before the light came on and I realized I was gay, I was struggling to believe God loved me - and it had nothing to do with homosexuality/being gay. It had to do with a young boy being bullied, living a lonely childhood up through adulthood, never really having had friends, even being picked on by male cousins - that stuff still is with me, and yes, the gay stuff has added to it, but my view of God and my attempted relationship with Him has always been screwed up - long before I realized I was gay and began THAT struggle.
My reply to John (cornellcrawford) part 3
cornellcrawford said...
Part three:
Please, please consult exegeses that refute a fundamental application of Scripture. You will find there are very intelligent, God-fearing, open-minded, and critical essays that go beyond the surface of these passages in Leviticus and Romans to debate what the writers really meant. Historically, you will find that fundamentalism festers in an environment in which the society is largely uneducated, or is under the pressure of fear to keep control. Look beyond conservative, fundamental "experts;" most likely, if they have any sort of academic background, it is from a conservative institution that only reinforces itself with fundamental instructors.
Take the example of Jesus, himself. He challenged the fundamental nature of both the Pharisees and Sadduccees. He subverted the system--he didn't play by the "rules." He said "the Kingdom of God is within you." He came to free us from the Law. Part of that Law was a misunderstanding and shunning of homosexuality. Though it was obviously extant, the larger society could not understand it. Today, the American Psychological Association states it is not a disease, that it is natural (though it is in the minority), and cannot be changed. Just because homosexuality is not the majority doesn't automatically mean it's wrong. It's found in mammals as well. It's part of nature. I know, you may argue that that nature is wrong, but quite honestly, who are you to say it is? Do you have the qualifications in psychology or theology to assert such a claim, or is this just "something you know" based on years of exposure to an interpretation that is based on ignorance, judgment, and fear? Are you going to live the rest of your life miserable and bound and interpretation of scripture that makes you a second-class citizen?
My reply:
Just because those writers are out there, does not mean they are right. There are still a lot who say the opposite, and a lot of Christian Psychologists who say the opposite.
As for Jesus... He never contradicted the Old Testament. Much as been made of the fact that He never said anything about homosexuality. Possibly because it was not much of an issue in Israel - hence Paul addressing it instead - He also didn't address bestiality or incest - or other things the Bible clearly condemns, but I digress.
On to mammals. I love that argument - that other mammals/animals do it. I don't mean to be unkind, but that is a bad argument. Some also eat their young, and all mammals will have sex with any animal of their kind, whether it be their sibling or parent - so the animal/mammal argument does not carry over well, unless you're going to say incest is ok, since it occurs all of the time in animals - and far more than homosexual sex. Reminds me of a funny story - years ago - I was about 15, our neighbor girl, about 8 years old, got 2 kittens, a male and a female. I made the statement that in the near future, they would be having kittens. Her reaction - "oh, no! They are brother and sister!" - animals don't care.
And no, I have no psychological degree, but I can read - and I can read my Bible and see that it says sex between 2 men is wrong - a sin.
And by the way, Jesus did have a lot to say about lust - and there is a lot of lust in homosexuality.
Part three:
Please, please consult exegeses that refute a fundamental application of Scripture. You will find there are very intelligent, God-fearing, open-minded, and critical essays that go beyond the surface of these passages in Leviticus and Romans to debate what the writers really meant. Historically, you will find that fundamentalism festers in an environment in which the society is largely uneducated, or is under the pressure of fear to keep control. Look beyond conservative, fundamental "experts;" most likely, if they have any sort of academic background, it is from a conservative institution that only reinforces itself with fundamental instructors.
Take the example of Jesus, himself. He challenged the fundamental nature of both the Pharisees and Sadduccees. He subverted the system--he didn't play by the "rules." He said "the Kingdom of God is within you." He came to free us from the Law. Part of that Law was a misunderstanding and shunning of homosexuality. Though it was obviously extant, the larger society could not understand it. Today, the American Psychological Association states it is not a disease, that it is natural (though it is in the minority), and cannot be changed. Just because homosexuality is not the majority doesn't automatically mean it's wrong. It's found in mammals as well. It's part of nature. I know, you may argue that that nature is wrong, but quite honestly, who are you to say it is? Do you have the qualifications in psychology or theology to assert such a claim, or is this just "something you know" based on years of exposure to an interpretation that is based on ignorance, judgment, and fear? Are you going to live the rest of your life miserable and bound and interpretation of scripture that makes you a second-class citizen?
My reply:
Just because those writers are out there, does not mean they are right. There are still a lot who say the opposite, and a lot of Christian Psychologists who say the opposite.
As for Jesus... He never contradicted the Old Testament. Much as been made of the fact that He never said anything about homosexuality. Possibly because it was not much of an issue in Israel - hence Paul addressing it instead - He also didn't address bestiality or incest - or other things the Bible clearly condemns, but I digress.
On to mammals. I love that argument - that other mammals/animals do it. I don't mean to be unkind, but that is a bad argument. Some also eat their young, and all mammals will have sex with any animal of their kind, whether it be their sibling or parent - so the animal/mammal argument does not carry over well, unless you're going to say incest is ok, since it occurs all of the time in animals - and far more than homosexual sex. Reminds me of a funny story - years ago - I was about 15, our neighbor girl, about 8 years old, got 2 kittens, a male and a female. I made the statement that in the near future, they would be having kittens. Her reaction - "oh, no! They are brother and sister!" - animals don't care.
And no, I have no psychological degree, but I can read - and I can read my Bible and see that it says sex between 2 men is wrong - a sin.
And by the way, Jesus did have a lot to say about lust - and there is a lot of lust in homosexuality.
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